Don, "Honey, calm down. It is okay to be skeptical. We can always asked questions."

Joel, "Anny, it is really okay if your hearing and getting more upset. That might be a good thing. All I ask is that you don't ignore what you find in anger. Don't just say to your self, oh that is just so much crap, I don't care what the scriptures say, what is being shown, or anything, I know it is wrong. It is crap. Don't say those things to yourself. Check it out, prove that these things are right. Not that there wrong. You can prove they are wrong to yourself by just ignoring it."

Anny, "Okay, I will do that. I just want to listen right now. I'll let Dan and Sir Tommy discuss this with you for now."

Tommy, "You know something, this is going along the lines that I, myself can understand. Because isn't it true that we read in I Corinthians 15:26 that "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death". Death is an enemy . It is not a friend.

Joel, "Very good! You should be asking yourself, If we go to God immediately upon our death, how can Paul refer to death as an enemy? And knowing this then your next question should be, how was death conquered?"

Tommy, " I think I can answer that. We can look at I Corinthians 15:17-20, and it will give us the answer to that. Here it is. Let me read it but not verbatim, "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain; ....Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished .... "

Joel, " I wonder if you really noticed the word perished here Tommy? .But now is Christ risen from the dead". And in verse 22, "For as in Adam, all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive". Note the contrast between the unthinkable, that Christ had not risen and the fact that He had risen. Because Christ had risen, those that are His shall also rise. ... be made alive. Christ's resurrection is that which conquers death. And because He was raised, those in Christ shall also be raised. The Greek word translated "raised' in this passage is "egiro" and the Greek word for "resurrection" is "anastasis".

Tommy, "Is being raised a different event than resurrection?"

Joel, "Let us examine a few of the scriptures which use these two Greek words.

The word "Egiro" is found 137 times in the New testament. It is used of resurrection 74 times. We read in Matthew 16:21, "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto His disciples how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed, and be raised,egiro, again the third day". "Egiro" then refers to the time when Christ, as the first fruits, was raised from the dead.

Looking at  I Corinthians 15:13, "But if there be no resurrection, anastasis, of the dead, then is Christ not risen, egiro". Paul's point in this passage is to assure his readers that, false teachings aside, there is indeed a resurrection of the dead. If there were no resurrection of the dead then Christ would still be in the grave. But, Christ was raised and that proves that there is a resurrection.With that in mind, let us re-examine I Corinthians 5:13. "But if there be no resurrection, anastasis, of the dead, then is Christ not risen, egiro". This  verse makes it clear that "anastasis" and "egiro" refer to the exact same event, resurrection. 

Tommy, " Yes. If man is alive after death apart from resurrection, how is Christ's resurrection the conquering of the enemy, death? And, even more to the point, why is resurrection even necessary, if we are alive anyway before resurrection?"

Joel, " that is right. The unsaved man is no longer alive after death. And because the same fate befalls the saved as the unsaved at death, the saved also are no longer alive. But because the saved will be resurrected, it is only the saved who do not perish, because only the saved are resurrected unto resurrection life.

All this is being said with the understanding that the view that the saved go to heaven immediately upon death is one that has been taught for many, many years. It obviously didn't come out of nowhere. In order to study this subject as thoroughly as possible we should consider the scriptures that seem to teach the widely held view.

So what about Philippians 1:23, it says here:

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart and to be with Christ; which is far better.

There is no doubt that taken apart from the teaching of God's holy Word concerning what happens at death, this verse does certainly seem to suggest that when a believer dies he goes to be with Christ. But, we can not dismiss the teachings of scriptures as to what death is, as to the fact that the body goes back to dust and the spirit has no life or personality in itself. How then, are we to understand this verse?

What did Job tell us, through the Holy Spirit, about death.

Job 14:10, "But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more".

Job 34:14 "If He set His heart upon man, if He gather unto Himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust ".

When man dies and "is no more", he doesn't exist. When the breath of life is separated from the body, man does not exist. So when Paul writes of departing to be with Christ, he was most naturally not counting the time that he will not exist, the years of his burial. There is No time existent in death.

Tommy, "Okay then, I am thinking of another one that we should look at. What about 2 Corinthians 5:8? It says here that:

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Joel, "A very good question. Many times this verse is misquoted as this: "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". It is misquoted because that is the meaning that many have given this verse. If it were true that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, how could we possibly consider death an enemy? But that is how death is described in scriptures, as an enemy. Why would we need to be resurrected? And what part of us is with the Lord? That is to say, the soul is not part of us, the spirit is nothing more than the breath of life, for it has no life or personality in itself. And the body returns to dust. How then shall we understand this verse?

Dan, "Hm, this comes to mind. I believe that in order to be consistent in our understanding of death we must see in this verse the same thing we see in Philippians 1:23 then. That Paul is not counting the time that he is dead because he does not exist then. So, he knew that the first thing that he will know when he is resurrected, when he is made alive again, is that he is present with the Lord. Naturally, he is willing to be absent from the body, when that is what he has to look forward to. Is that correct.

Joel, "Oh Yes. That is it Dan. Congratulations. That was wonderful."

Tommy. "Okay, what about Luke 20:38. It says here:  "For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him." Doesn't this verse mean that because God is the God of the living, all are alive?

Joel, "If that were true, how then are we to understand Romans 14:9 because it says, "For to this end Christ died, and rose, and revived, that He might be Lord both of the dead and living?" Let us examine the context of Luke 20:38.

Verse 27 of Luke 20 gives us the reason for this particular discourse of our Lord's. "Then came to Him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection...". It is clear that the verse under consideration comes in the context of Christ's response to the implied question as to whether there is indeed a resurrection of the dead. Verse 37 is part of this same discourse. "Now, that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob". The point of this verse is that Moses knew that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob would live. Does that mean that they were not dead? The answer is simply "no". There is no scriptural evidence that they are alive, and if they were not dead, why would they need to be resurrected from the dead? God is spirit and is therefore not confined to the limits of time, He looks upon those who will live in resurrection life as already alive. In other words, there is a gap in time for we who live in time, but there is no gap for God, who does not live in time.

Tommy , " I think I understand. I Corinthians 15:23-25 is an excellent example of a gap that is not mentioned, because God is not confined to time. It says 23)"But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. 24) Then cometh the end when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.25) For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet". Verse 23 speaks of the second coming of Christ. Verse 24 reads, "then cometh the end". But the end is 1,000 years after His coming.

Dan, "How do we know that?

Tommy, "We know that because Christ will not deliver the kingdom to the Father until He has "put down all rule and all power and all authority".  And it is reminded to us that at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ the nations will rebel. This is shown in Revelation 20:7-9. We cannot say that all rule power and authority are put down when there is a rebellion of the nations pending. Also, death is not destroyed until after the millennial reign, as it is said in Revelation 20:14. It should be clear to all of us that there is a gap of 1,000 years between I Corinthians 15:23 and 15:24. Meaning, we read in verse 23 of the coming of Christ. Then the next phrase is "then cometh the end". But there is a 1,000 year gap between the coming of Christ and the end. This is not a mistake. There is no error on Paul's part. We must bear in mind that God is spirit and does not live in time and space.

Joel, "Thank you Tommy, that is correct. Back to what I was saying. Paul writes in Romans 14:9 that God is the Lord " both of the dead and living ". But Christ in Luke 20:38 was telling the Sadducees that Moses understood that there would be a resurrection when He "called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob". Resurrection was the theme in Luke 20, we can not dismiss that theme if we want a true understanding of verse 38.

Dan, "I have found a passage that makes this difficult. John 6:47 says, Verily, verily, I say unto you, 'He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life. Does not this verse mean that there is life in man and he will never die?

Joel, "I don't like to answer question with another question. But I have to ask myself, How then would we explain what death is? If it is not death but life, then why is it an enemy? If we are alive when we die, why would we need to be resurrected? The fact is there is no scriptural answers for the questions you have asked because man is not alive when he dies, for he is dead. There is no time existent in death.

Dan, "How then are we to understand the meaning of this verse?"

Joel, "Great question Dan. There are two things to consider in trying to answer that question. The first is, as has been said above, that God is not limited by, nor does He live in, time. When there is no time, everything happens in the present. So God can speak of man having everlasting life at the moment he accepts Christ as his Savior because for God, everything is in the present.

The second thing to consider is that every believer has the guarantee of resurrection life. "In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory", Ephesians 1:13-14. If the believer is guaranteed redemption, obviously we can count on that guarantee. That is to say in the vernacular, "it's as good as done".

Dan, "Oh,, oh.. what about John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.

Joel, "This verse my suggest to you that the believer doesn't really die, but lives forever. But we read in the previous verse, verse 25, "..... he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live ". That proves that even believers do die."

Dan, "Oh but does not this talk about spiritual death?"

Joel, "In context that argument is unfounded. The context is not about spiritual death as opposed to real death. It is about believers who are dead, in verse 25, and believers who were then alive in verse 26. The point is that at the time our Lord uttered the words recorded in John 11:25-26, Israel was, correctly, looking forward to the millennium to begin in their life time. Had Israel accepted their Messiah, those believers alive at the time would not have died. John 6:58 is another passage that speaks of living forever. Again, We must understand that verse in its dispensational setting, otherwise it contradicts a great many other scriptures and their teaching as to the need for resurrection.

Anny, "I just noticed this passage. Matthew 17:1-3 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, and was transfigured before them; and His face did shine as the sun and His raiment was white as the light. And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him.

Doesn't the fact that Moses and Elias were talking with our Lord prove that Moses and Elias had not been dead, but alive in heaven?

Joel, "Verse 9 gives us the answer to that question. "And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them saying, 'Tell the vision to no man....". Peter, James and John did not see Moses and Elias, they were a vision .

Anny, " I have to say it. So? Why does that matter. Whether it was a vision or not?

Tommy, "Let me answer that. In Scripture, a vision is a revelation from God which is an appearance or exhibition of something supernaturally presented to the minds of the prophets, by which they were informed of future events. Such were the visions of Isaiah, of Amos, of Ezekiel, & Matthew."

Joel, "That is a very good definition Tommy. I look to look into it a little deeper. This is what I have found in previous studies on the subject. And I have brought these notes so that I can share with you. And even had made copies so that you can take them with you. Yes, I know, that means that I understood the fact that this verse would be popping up somewhere while we were discussing this topic. But, even if it didn't, it is good to be prepared. So here you go. Read it at your leisure."

Anny, "Joel, could you read it out loud, I can't get my eyes to focus."

Joel, "Sure. It says, The Greek word translated "vision" is "horama". The Greek word is used twelve times in the New Testament. As we study each occurrence we will see how the Holy Spirit had intended for us to understand this word. It is always translated "vision", except in Acts 7:31.

The first occurrence is Matthew 17:9 which I have already quoted previously. So I won't read that.

Acts 7:31, "And when Moses saw it,the burning bush in verse 30, he wondered at the sight...". The Greek word translated sight in this verse is the "horama" the same word translated "vision" in Matthew 17:9. The account of the burning bush is given in Exodus 3. Unfortunately, the Hebrew has "he saw" the burning bush, but that phrase was not included in the KJV. So it can be told to you the meaning of that Hebrew word translated "saw" at this point. However, based on the fact that the 11 other occurrences of the word "horama" is translated "vision", I would say that here too, Moses saw a vision of a burning bush. Which might be very surprising to you.

Acts 9:9-10, "And he, that being Paul, was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias: and to him said the Lord in a vision....".

Acts 9:11-12, "And the Lord said unto him, that being Annias, 'Arise, and go unto the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, and hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight ". It couldn't be more clear that "horama" does not mean "to see with the eyes" because we are specifically told that Paul could not see when had this vision.

Acts 10:3, "He, that being Cornelius, saw in a vision, evidently about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming in to him...."

Acts 10:17, "Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean...."

Acts 10:19, "While Peter thought on the vision...."

Acts 11:5, "I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, a certain vessel descend as it had been a great sheet let down from heaven by four corners..." The last four occurrences of "horama" refer to Peter's vision. This verse tells us that he had been in a trance. That tells us that Peter did not see the actual sheet, but a vision.

Acts 12:8-9, "And the angel said unto him, Peter who was in prison, 'Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals.' And so he did, And he saith unto him, 'Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.' And he went out, and followed him: and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel: but thought he saw a vision". Note the contrast in this passage between what Peter thought he was actually seeing, and seeing a vision.

Acts 16:9, "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night...".

Acts 16:10, "And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavored to go into Macedonia...".

Acts 18:9, "Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision...".

Because we are told quite specifically in Matthew 17:9 that what Peter, James and John had seen was a vision, we may conclude that Moses and Elijah were not, and are not alive, but that they were seen in a vision.

Tommy, " Now, I have to ask. What about the story of the rich man and Lazarus?

Joel, "Great question. Why don't you read it to us Tommy."

Tommy, "Okay, the story of the rich man and Lazarus is found in Luke chapter 16. It says, 19: There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21: And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23: And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24: And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25: But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26: And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27: Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29: Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30: And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31: And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Ain't that life 9