Ain't that life (Isn't death living?)
A Written compostion of the Heavenly Calling Network Study Group

Part 6
Ain't that life!

Tommy, "I have heard of the "fallen angels-nephilim-sons of god" view and I suspected that is what you believed...to be honest I really don't buy that view.  There are way too many problems with it.  You just mentioned that Greek mythology came from these fallen angels and their offspring ... I say it's the other way around, that Greek mythology is being interjected into the interpretation of scriptures with this view.

I personally hold to the "godly line of Seth" view when it comes to the "sons of god" in Genesis 6.  Anyway, I want to stay on topic and don't really want to get deeply into that. Now, since I don't share your view on the nephilims being fallen angels, I think it follows then that I can't agree with you either in your interpretation that the "spirits in prison" are fallen angels.  We'll have to agree to disagree on that interpretation for now. With that said, why don't we move on to another scripture you could explain for me.  How about Revelations 6:9-10?

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice , "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"

In observations, it seems the martyrs are in heaven before the judgment. This takes place before the resurrection, even before the end of the world, before the judgment, while life is going on as usual upon the earth. The martyrs, despite being "dead", have their own memories, and remember that they have been martyred. So what can you say about this?"

Joel, "These words simply mean "I saw those who had been slain." John also hears what they say. Speaking requires the organs of speech. Tongues are necessary. Vocal organs are indispensable for the utterance of words. These were the martyred saints personified and represented as waiting . They themselves were dead; for in Rev. 20: 4, John sees them again, and it says "they lived again" in the first resurrection. "The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" which you can find in Revelation chapter 20 verse 5. Why say "lived not again" if, all the time, they were alive in some other place. Moreover, how could "souls" wear white robes. We might as well speak of the eye, or the tongue, or the face, or any other part of the body wearing a white robe. If souls here are put for persons, then all is clear. John could see them, and hear them, and see what was given to them, and what was done to them as individuals. Even according to popular belief, "souls," as such, cannot be seen. There are no such things as material souls, able to talk without the bodily organs of speech.

Tommy, "Hmm."

Joel, "That is a wonderful response Tommy. Hmm, really is a question isn't it. It asking us inside, what do we really believe? Sincerely, what do we really understand about death. It seems that one of the most clear pictures given about death is found in Ecclesiastes 3:19-21. There it says man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both : As one dies, so dies the other.  All have the same breath, man has no advantage over the animal. All go to the same place ; all come from dust, and to dust all return.  Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?

There are more witnesses in scripture as we have seen in previously in this discussion. Here are just a few more passages that describe death.

Job 14:10, "But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more ".

Job 34:14 "If He set His heart upon man, if He gather unto Himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust ".

Ps. 115:17, "It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those who go down to silence ".

What we learn from these passages is that like the animals , the body returns to dust and the spirit goes back to God. There is only silence. No audible's. No thoughts. Absolutely nothing. No days. No hours. No minutes. No seconds.  The fact is if we say that man is not dead but in another form of life when he dies, we must say the same of the animals. But the thought that the animals are alive in heaven is unscriptural and, as much as we would like to think of it as true, it is just simply unscriptural. As I have read somewhere, a pig, for example can not live in heaven, God declares it unfit to eat in the Law of Moses. How could He accept a pig in heaven?

It is also important to note that the passages I have quoted do not make any distinction between the death of the saved and the unsaved. They describe what happens at death, apart from man's acceptance or non-acceptance of God. Therefore, what is true, as described in these passages, of the believer is also true of the unbeliever.

Dan,"Wow! That sure does give us, or I should say, me, something to think about, doesn't it."

Joel, "Hearing the questions that have been brought forth, there are two things that come to mind. At one point it is the Soul that is being spoken about. At another it is A spirit that is being brought forth by the both of you. So, what about the soul? I mean most certainly it has long been taught that man has a soul, and that when he dies that soul goes either to heaven or to hell, depending upon whether that person is saved. So we should at once examine God's Word to arrive at the truth regarding "soul".

Tommy, "Sounds reasonable, lets do that then."

Dan, "That is fine with me."


Joel, "As you already know Genesis 2:7 describes the creation of man. It says here, " And the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul ".  Now, you both should take a firm note of this in your minds for in this verse, man is two part,  the body from the ground, and  the breath of life which was breathed into his nostrils.   When these two were combined, man became a living soul .

We also have guidance in how the word Soul is used in scriptures by the Holy Spirit. The Hebrew word translated "soul" in the verse I have just quoted is nephesh".  Its first occurrences are found in Genesis, chapter one.  Genesis 1:20, says here, "And God said, ‘Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature, nephesh, that hath life…".  Also again in Genesis 1:21, it says here, "And God created great whales and every living creature, again nephesh. Continuing, that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly."   Why stop here, again in Genesis. 1:24, it says, "And God said, ‘Let the earth bring forth the living creature, again nephesh…Continuing, the cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth…".  Genesis 1:30, "And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth wherein there is life, ah, there it is again, nephesh, Continuing, I have given every green herb for meat".

The normal view of soul is something spiritual that man has. That is part of man. And so often get intermixed with each other as to be the same thing. But they are simply not.  How can we come to a definition of soul that allows for the fact that the first occurrences of the Hebrew word translated "soul", are translated "creature" and "life"? How can we?"

Tommy and Dan both shrug their shoulders and nod, looking at each other.

Joel, "Did you know Tommy, that in the King James Version of the Bible "nephesh" is translated in 45 different ways. Which gives me a giggle, but also has my concern. In Actuality, every occurrence of "nephesh" can be translated with one of only three words, these are "being", "life" or "person". I have a friend who pointed out this to me, and she is absolutely correct in this point. These three words all have the same connotation and will never contradict the meaning of the others.

Now lets go back to the first occurrences in Genesis to see if one of the three words suggested by my friend will adequately translate the Hebrew word "nehphesh".  Genesis 1:20, "…bring forth the moving beings…".  Genesis 1:21, "….God created every living being….".  Genesis 1:24, "….bring forth the living beings".  "Beings" is a better translation of nephesh.

How about the creation of Adam, man. Genesis 2:7 "…and man became a living being".  This translation truly allows for the word to have the same connotation in all its occurrences. And more importantly it will not be a stumbling block to any readers of the scriptures when it is applied to its, twenty-two times, speaking of  the lower animals . In reality, maybe we should go take a look at all 754 times the word "nephesh" is used to see if the meaning of that word is held in tact with the three words above than the 45 in the King James Version.

But I know I don't have the time right now, it is almost time for the dinner rush. And you know, we here at Joel Ra`eb Dabars want to feed the hungry."

Dan, "I must say, I have so much to think about, would you mind if my wife and I came back after the dinner rush, later on tonight?"

Joel, "That would be wonderful actually. And she might have some questions to. And the more you ask, the more we have to search and see, the more I learn. And I appreciate learning. I want to know. I want to look at these things."

Tommy, "I was just thinking, do we have to stop now?"

Joel, "I am sorry, but yes we do. I think the hostess is giving me the look. I can see it here face. She is thinking to herself, Just because you own the place doesn't mean that you can just sit on your but all day." She is a tough one, that one. But because she is so tough, she is my most valued employee. She takes care of the customers very well. Better than all the rest."

Dan, "That's funny."

Tommy, "Okay, I can be here around 8:30."

Dan, "I think I can get my wife to come about 8:45."

Joel, "That is great, then we will start at 9. The quest will be all gone. The doors will be locked. And we can have all the time that we need. I will see you all then."

Ain't that life 7