Ain't that life (Isn't death living?)
A Written compostion of the Heavenly Calling Network Study Group

Part 13
Ain't that life!
Dan, "Iron sharpens iron" indeed, as it says in Proverbs.

Here's the question I would like to tackle at this point...I pointed out that the "soul" is used in reference to God and your response was it was in reference to God's "being". That is fine by me. My point was if God can be a "soul" or a "being" without a physical body, why can't man be same? We are created in his "likeness" or "image" after all didn't he?

Now you made a curious point about God taking on a bodily form. I really did not understand what you meant by that. Scripture says that God by nature is spirit, and according to Jesus spirith hath no flesh and blood. Now God may have from time to time, prior to Christ, taken on some kind of bodily form, but in his natural "environment" God is body-less isn't he? If so, then it is reasonable to believe that man, who was made in the image of God, can survive as a "soul" or "being" either in bodily form or without it just like our God can.

And the scripture seems to support this in various places such as the ones I've shared with you, like Rebekah's soul departing when she died (gen 35:18), and a boy's soul returns and is revived (1 kings 17). But you will defend your position on this saying that "soul" in those cases should be translated "life", while I on the other hand would say "being" should be the translation. So who between us is right?

Now you pointed to scriptures in Psalms in particular where "thoughts perish" and no one "praises God". But are we to take those as a complete descriptions of the state of the dead? Or is it simply a partial description? For in Isaiah 14:9-10 we see that there are times when those who died are quite active in their state, "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?"

Isn't true that there are many instances when one passage of scripture gives one detail and another passage gives ADDITIONAL detail to give us a more complete picture? Like in the gospels, where in one gospel there was one demon possessed man talking to Jesus, but in another gospel Jesus was shown talking to two.

It would seem then from scriptures that the state of one who died is one where the person's "soul" or "being" enters a state of MOSTLY quiet rest in Sheol, as described by the Psalm verses, but at certain occasions can actually be active as that described in Isaiah 14.

Further support is that ancient Israel itself did not believe that the dead were silent. They practiced NECROMANCY, an attempt at communication with the dead. Saul himself tried to communicate with the spirit of the prophet Samuel. What do you think?"

Joel, "As I read my notes on what you have said, you have asked, "if God can be a "soul" or a "being" without a physical body, why can't man be same?" The difference here is that man is NOT SPIRIT. Man is spirit AND body. God is spirit and as spirit He is being. Man became a being AFTER the body was joined to the breath of life, or spirit. Also, you must rember, so may I respectfully remind you that man was created in the PHYSICAL likeness of God. That is the Likeness Of Jesus Christ.

Your second point is:

Now you made a curious point about God taking on a bodily form. I really did not understand what you meant by that. Scripture says that God by nature is spirit, and according to Jesus spirith hath no flesh and blood. Now God may have from time to time, prior to Christ, taken on some kind of bodily form, but in his natural "environment" God is body-less isn't he? If so, then it is reasonable to believe that man, who was made in the image of God, can survive as a "soul" or "being" either in bodily form or without it just like our God can. Yes, that is correct. WE all can agree, that basically, God is spirit and at times took on a bodily form. That is a great starting point for us both.

But your next point that was said was, "it is reasonable to believe that man, who was made in the image of God, can survive as a "soul" or "being" either in bodily form or without it just like our God can". I am sorry Dan but, is that a reasonable conclusion for anyone to take. Scripturally I can't agree because, as It is written, God is BY NATURE spirit, Man is BY NATURE, body. Man was not created as a spiritual being, he was created as a being that lives in a body. WITHOUT A BODY MAN CAN NOT EXIST AS A BEING. God breathed into his nostrils and man BECAME a living being. Also, Man was created in the PHYSICAL likeness of God. To assume any other likeness is not supported by scripture.

Your next point was:

And the scripture seems to support this in various places such as the ones I've shared with you, like Rebekah's soul departing when she died (gen 35:18), and a boy's soul returns and is revived (1 kings 17). But you will defend your position on this saying that "soul" in those cases should be translated "life", while I on the other hand would say "being" should be the translation. So who between us is right?

In the cases of Gen. 35 and I Kings 17 I wouldn't disagree that it it could be transalted "being". Rebekah's being departed, that is to say, she died, i.e. she was no longer, she did not exist.

Then you said, if I have this noted correctly:

Now you pointed, meaning me, to scriptures in Psalms in particular where "thoughts perish" and no one "praises God". And you said, "But are we to take those as a complete descriptions of the state of the dead? Or is it simply a partial description? For in Isaiah 14:9-10 we see that there are times when those who died are quite active in their state, "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?"

Isaiah chapter 14 is a very interesting passage which you have made a very interesting point. May I say and make it positively known to begin with that I believe that, where ever possible, scripture should be interpreted literally. But there is this passage which will not allow for a literal interpetation. Allow me to explain. Verse 9, "Sheol (the grave) is all astir". Let's say for the moment that sheol" means hell in the traditional sense, and not grave, as I believe it means. This phrase could mean that hell was all astir, but let's go on. Context is everything. "it rouses the spirits of the departed". Hell certainly does not have the power to raise spirits, and neither does hell have the power to make all "the leaders of the world ... rise from their thrones" To say that hell has that power, (it amounts almost to resurrection power) and is not sound. So let's you and I re-examine this passage to see what the point is.

First it is addressed to the "king of Babylon", i.e. Satan's anti christ. (verses 12-14 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.) The passage you quoted is the "taunt against the king of Babylon" (verse 4). The point here is that all the rulers of the world will rejoice to see the downfall of the antichrist because of what he will do and what he had done throughout time. Now the question is how do we know? Yes, how do we know that this passage is not to be taken literally? Because it does not enhance the description of sheol as you suggested. It contradicts it. That is to say, there can not be silence AND not silence. Also, if, as David says he cannot praise God in sheol, how can the spirits of leaders of the world taunt. That is not an enhancing descrption, it is a contradiction. But in saying that, I agree, the scriptures is full of enhancing passages, but you will and must note that scripture never gives contradicting ones.

Your final point and I quote:

"Further support is that ancient Israel itself did not believe that the dead were silent. They practiced NECROMANCY, an attempt at communication with the dead. Saul himself tried to communicate with the spirit of the prophet Samuel. What do you think?"

First let me say, what ancient Israel believed is, in my view, can not be and is immaterial. For instance, most of Israel during our Lord's time on earth did not believe in resurrection. We certainly don't base any doctrine on their beliefs, so I ask myself why would we with any beliefs of unbelievers? WE don't.

But you did raise an interesting point with Saul. So shall we take a look at what your pointing to? Sure, it would be best.

Quote: 3: Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the wizards out of the land. 4: The Philistines assembled, and came and encamped at Shunem; and Saul gathered all Israel, and they encamped at Gilbo'a. 5: When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. 6: And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets. 7: Then Saul said to his servants, "Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her." And his servants said to him, "Behold, there is a medium at Endor." 8: So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments, and went, he and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, "Divine for me by a spirit, and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you." 9: The woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the wizards from the land. Why then are you laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?" 10: But Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As the LORD lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing." 11: Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me." 12: When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul." 13: The king said to her, "Have no fear; what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth." 14: He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance. 15: Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do." 16: And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? 17: The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor, David. 18: Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD, and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Am'alek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19: Moreover the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me; the LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines." 20: Then Saul fell at once full length upon the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel; and there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.

Your point uses "familiar spirits". Familiar spirits ARE, "evil spirits impersonating dead humans". How do we know that that is true? I Sam. 28:11, "whom shall I bring UP unto thee"? You and I have already discussed the fact that the spirit of man goes UP to God when a man dies. So if this medium were able to bring Samuel's spirit to Saul, that spirit should have to COME DOWN, NOT UP. Because there are no contradictions in the Word of God, what Saul saw was an evil spirit brought up to impersonate Samuel. What she saw was 'elohiym coming out of the earth, and the form of one was in a form of an old man. I have no memory of the dead becoming Elohiym.

That is what I think. What say you?

Dan, "I say, how come I haven't noticed that before. It is hard for me to change my mind on this. It truly is. I wan't to study it fully before I can say that I agree, or that the scriptures agree fully."

Tommy, "I agree. I have been taught all my life that we have 3 parts. It is really hard to change my thoughts on this subject. But I will also take a fuller look to see what is right."

Anny, "So our hope is then purely in Resurrection. Our Hope then is purely in Christ. Our hope then is not that they live now, but will live with Christ. And time for my friend is no time at all. I see it. Our Hope then Is certain. It is in Christ."

Joel, "I could not have said it any better Anny."

Anny Smiled and felt good about this discussion. And for that Dan was thankful. Dan still wanted to go and check it out. Which is always a very good idea. They all left as friends In Christ.

Home